Question with respect to GVS in Hermann Of supermicra of 28

[Da answil]

#12007-04-5157:24: 04
alexa





It does not please as it works by GVS. With the use besides shower (cock) before average water head gradually is heated to the established temperature, then pocket is turned off, it cools. It is included after a certain time and again occurs heating and so on. As a result the temperature of water jumps and to put to use hot water is sufficiently inconvenient. It is necessary to manipulate by cock. Modulation works.
The minimum power of is sufficiently high in my opinion and it does not extract by modulation.
Is possible as the solution of this problem - for example the decrease of minimum power.

[J.Forfum]

Not fig. Pocket down this does not have enough brains. It is necessary to suspend sensors down the distributing cranes in order to track actual temperature GVS.

2 J.Forfun
and to you did have time knowledge to be gathered? and frequently the super-MeekRa “does blunt” on GVS? before the pocket with the brains there all before the order.
2 alexa
apparently, with the discovery of common crane GVS (not soul), water of of normal temperature? minimum before this model of the pocket actually of high(ly)-cotton and for obtaining the comfortable temperature GVS is required a good duct of water, even before the comparison with 24 super-mykroy. and the considerable decrease of minimum will extend above itself other problems, which will creep out through year- other. do not be fascinated by this. it is better step-up station down the water supply.

[J.Forfum]

2
A question not before the concrete pocket, you this perfectly well know. Concerning the knowledge, I assume, you the same passed SAU (or ASU), but not only courses of : -). Existing on GVS never can compete (on the quality of control besides temperature and pressure by common mixer) with the flow of constant temperature based on the riser with the centralized water supply. Time lags and space between the skin of your body and the heat exchanger of pocket are very great in order to correctly regulate temperature according to your sensations hot- coldly, those more with the minimum expenditure, when below pocket no longer can to modulate, and it passes beside the regime include- turned off gas charging valve. By ideal from the point of view of the quality of regulation be- if burner with the distribution GVS worked always against the maximum power, but this is inadmissible luxury from the point of view of the flow of gas and service life of pocket.
2 alexa
Take this as proper, generally to live much it is worse without GVS (even with the scabby regulation).

“Existing ” occur different. to be dismantled against the basic differences and the methods of the preparation of hot water before the different pockets.
in connection with to the theme: it is not necessary “to assume as proper” malfunction. irresolvable situations it does not occur. control and, before the hopeless situation, additional booster pump they, as a rule, solve problem. the price of a question of 500. the super-MeekRa a completely responsible pocket and all can be done .

[Dennec]

Judging as far as those described of alexa to symptoms, , before the system low water head. Only here is most likely not before the high threshold of modulation, but before the operation of the microswitch of the duct of water on the three-way valve. Before my practice there were several such cases, when they cramped the cross section of cold water ( 16, long main line and the like) and even with average water head, when consumer began to regulate the temperature of water with the help of the mixer, pocket it was turned off, because the pressure through it was decreased.
Hence following recommendations: check the duct of water through the pocket (minimum 2 liters per minute for the normal functioning GVS), check the filters of cold water (external and of ), regulate temperature GVS better on the pocket and not by mixer.
2 J.Forfun you place pocket with the built-in storage boiler + the system of recirculation and problem is solved. But about the constant temperature of hot water before the riser, then this is the long ago forgotten fairy tale for many consumers. Even in Kiev at the point of many tenants are necessary on many minutes to remove cooled water. And to pay in this case at the point of it as at the point of the hot against the triple tariff. So that I will allow before this question with you it will not agree.

[J.Forfum]

If you bear in mind the difference between the and with the secondary heat exchanger, then before the principle of the regulation of the response of feedback they differ in no way… But here term “step-up” pump to me is actually unknown and it would be interesting to listen that how (before the details of regulation) “this” will solve problem.
Dennis
The built-in boiler will certainly solve problem, and still better if it will be external of liters such down 500….In exactly the same manner I brought beside an example riser - as the ideal case, which it is necessary to approach. The conversation of indeed not based on this - interests ITS CONCRETELY pocket.
Of j.Forfun (2407-06-0526:33: 02)

[J.Forfum]

J.Forfun wrote:

If you bear in mind the difference between the and with the secondary heat exchanger, then before the principle of the regulation of the response of feedback they differ in no way… But here term “step-up” pump to me is actually unknown and it would be interesting to listen that how (before the details of regulation) “this” will solve problem.
Dennis
The built-in boiler will certainly solve problem, and still better if it will be external of liters such down 500….In exactly the same manner I brought beside an example riser - as the ideal case, which it is necessary to approach. The conversation of indeed not based on this - interests ITS CONCRETELY pocket.
But about water head give we will not guess, but let us request in alexa,
I nowhere before his statements even between lines read, that he has problem with the pressure.
Of j.Forfun (2407-04-0555:37: 54)

J.Forfun wrote:
… The built-in boiler will certainly solve problem, and still better if it will be external of liters such down 500….
it does mean nevertheless existing they can make decent GVS? it must be noted, that before the pockets with the boiler (or ) is present this element, as the valve, which is much more exact on the quality of control besides temperature, than common mixer. there the mixing follows either electronics or thermostat. and to these pockets is practically insignificant water head, let although the weakest. requested 40, you will obtain 40 even if duct as match. and the presence of boiler beside 500 liters is not the guarantee of good-quality GVS. this capacity is necessary, if there is a practical need, and not an abstract tendency down to “the riser”.

[J.Forfum]

wrote:
it does mean nevertheless existing they can make decent GVS?
C, this class as Supermicra - about which strictly and requested alexa is not. And I above wrote why - the loop of the feedback of the system of control (between the knob of mixer (by subjective sensation of heat against the emergence of mixer) and the modulated depending on several parameters burner) it has very great delay - even in the range modulation - to say nothing of beyond the limits for the normal regulation regime with the low expenditure, when pocket before the regime GVS .
If it would be “yes” - that you by guarantee reclamations.
Normally the pockets of this class because of this delay work on GVS only before “kept balance regime” - it opened mixer - it adjusted expenditure - and do not touch. You wish to turn - turn, but before the transient regime there will be either cold or very hot. I repeat, THIS NOT THE MALFUNCTION OF POCKET - THIS SYSTEMIC ERROR. This is alphabet ASU. In order to reduce this error to a minimum (cannot be reduced it): 1) temperature-sensing device GVS must stand on the nipple of mixer 2) heat exchanger it must be before the physical meaning ideal i.e. inertia-free. And even in this case because of the real length of tube GVS from the pocket to the nipple there will be delay before processing of feedback signal.
Of j.Forfun (2097-04-8582:34: 56)

[onexa]

There are no problems with water head. The described problem with GVS appears with the average level of the discovery crane. The pocket not with the discovery of crane down the complete. But to open crane down the complete appears the need for the rare cases. Usually we put to use before moderate duty. He did wish to explain, this of problem with the pocket or all normally and this in no way you will influence?

[J.Forfum]

alexa wrote:
He did wish to explain, this of problem with the pocket or all normally and this in no way you will influence?
Yes, and to me it is also very interesting to hear the response of experimental . Concrete response down a specific question.

is usually accepted to indicate duct before the liters/minutes well no so no.
before “the mid-position” of crane you duct GVS and thus pocket superheats water even on the minimum of its power. if we look technical log book down the pocket, then the range of the modulated power is there indicated and its lower limit is located about 10 kilowatts. below simply pocket it cannot be worked. so here this power something must remove. in the case of the work of pocket before the regime this is GVS the duct of water before the crane. it turns out that duct simply does not manage to make this. pocket " sees” that it superheats and is disconnected water. temperature fell - it was included and so forth
for the normal functioning GVS, especially for this model, is necessary a good duct of water. not it and pocket will not superheat water.
Of (2008-04-9526:18: 29)

[Dennec]

If we summarize entire that state aboved, then of the reasons for this work of pocket there can be two:
1) pocket cannot it will descend about the power of lower than its threshold of modulation (with the small duct) and therefore it
2) the duct of water through the pocket is insufficient for operating the three-way valve (or it is located before the transition zone)
It is in either case necessary to increase the duct of hot water through the pocket.

[J.Forfum]

Dennis
It is possible to interpret your response thus: ?
This pocket comfortably regulates GVS ONLY IN THE RANGE OF THE EXPENDITURE OF WATER FROM THE AVERAGE TO THE MAXIMUM. In the range expenditure from the minimum to the average the brains of pocket before the sleeping compartment with iron do not have a possibility of the comfortable maintenance of the preset temperature.
(Taking into account that minimum this 2/ and max. of 12/)

2 J.Forfun
yes. this before all pockets, where the temperature of water is regulated dynamically by modulation of burner.
2 Dennis
and here if pocket is located before the transition zone, then this problem it can not be…. then heating will be preheated…

[Dennec]

2 J.Forfun
not entirely understandably which is borne in mind under THE AVERAGE EXPENDITURE of water. By minimum and by maximum are understood the completely specific numbers, given before the log book of pocket, but here about the average expenditure there nothing it is said.
It is desirable to also focus attention of the respected participants in , that the stable work of pocket on the limit of the operation of three-way valve also depends on the temperature of cold water

[J.Forfum]

Dennis
To consider that such “average” expenditure - this is demagogy… Neither before one log book nor one pocket I saw so that the producer would write - our pocket - . and does not know how to prepare GVS in entire range of expenditure. ” - You gopher do see? - No. - A it is ": -) ()
Well take 5….6/ - substitute for the word “average”, in this case you can answer my question?
Of j.Forfun (2009-08-1011:20: 14)

[onexa]

Another question.

at 60 degrees begins the intense fallout of salts from water and as corollary are clogged heat exchangers for the running water. therefore all producers upper bound of the control GVS of 55 degrees on default pocket with the height difference of the power of the burner above the duct of water theoretically temperature GVS it can reach to 60 degrees after this pocket it is disconnected. with a change in the position of switch the temperature GVS will not be raised higher than established by temperature regulator GVS than as far as 5 (it seems so, I do not remember precisely) degrees. i.e. if displayed 40 degrees, then pocket during the superheating will be turned off on 45 degrees thus it is prevented the fallout of salts it the period of the service of heat exchanger without the washing.

J.Forfun wrote:
Well take 5….6/ - substitute for the word “average”, in this case you can answer my question?
task before the physics :
the useful minimum heat output of pocket 11.4 kilowatts.
in one minute flow 5-6 liters per minute of water with the initial temperature of 15 degrees.
on how much the temperature of running water, if does work against the minimum power entire thermal energy of for heating of water and what there will be temperature?
prompt from the technical characteristicss of the pocket:
with the maximum net power before 27.1 kilowatts of 15.8 liters in minutes they are heated on 25 degrees (40 degrees the emergence), 13.2 liters are heated on 30 degrees (45 degrees the emergence)
Of (2004-09-1024:57: 29)

[J.Forfum]

: -)
To me it will interestingly see your detachment, with the formulas and the theory
Although, before my question Dennis- in, I did not request detachments, I will verify at the point of the word.

2 J.Forfun





we remember together the seventh class:
Q=c*m*Dt
where:
Is q-th the obtained by body heat, George
c - specific heat of body, dJ/(°)
it is m-th the mass of body, kilograms of force
Dt - change in the temperature of body, °
http://vizeka.lo/thealy/timo-07/07c.xtn
there we explain, that the power of heat exchange - physical quantity, which characterizes the speed of transmission of thermal energy from one body to another. Unit of measurement - 1 watts. The power of heat exchange shows the energy, which passes from one body to another at the point of 1 s..
not sly manipulations with the formulas lead down the result:
Dt=14470*60/(4200*5)=32.6 degrees for the expenditure of 5 liters per minute and
Dt=11850*60/(4200*6)=27.1 degrees
it is noticeable that even with 10 degrees of the initial temperature of cold water hot is received already critical with your “average” expenditure. i.e. it can it will be needed dilute by cold, thus still more lowering duct and complicating work as far as pocket. this when gaseous equipment is correctly adjusted.

[J.Forfum]

I also am on - e and to before the forums on the heating; based on the nick me it is easy to also find beyond the forums of other subjects: -).
Yes, still I badly draw and model from the clay, and also I am tightened only of 7 times: -). Thanks, that they helped Dennis- in to answer my question.
Of j.Forfun (2007-04-2025:28: 01)

that not at the point of ….
the main thing, that for the use of the matter

[Da answil]

#362307-08-1015:38: 25
J.Forfun





alexa wrote:
… I have water from the hole, rigid, before the pocket stands softener….
Long ago it in you does stand? Chips before the flask yet not ? Do not miss moment change in time or throw out this filter - it will close up the system of pocket by the adhesive mass - before for example they cease to be covered valve…
Of j.Forfun (7007-04-1955:41: 59)

the distinctive characteristic of such “filters” - with the first passage of water it runs white as milk. it is simple polyphosphate pseudo-leftist…. to throw out is necessary immediately…
chips must be taken in the suppliers checked.

[onexa]

Question. Salt must be added or changed? For entirely a little it in this time of salt and I added to the complete flask.
So me no one did answer, if does stand the filter before the pocket, before what position it must stand microswitch on the board - for standard water or by rigid?

[J.Forfum]

alexa
In me also stood on the filter and the chips of this firm, bought it was in the firm magazine microseconds in the Kiev. Somewhere exactly a quantity of chips began to be decreased in nine months. Then intake valve began to hit the ground in new vehicle - water flowed through it beside the tank before the closed condition, but then I this did not connect for the sake of the filter. When it decided to vary chips (in accordance with instruction - the year of exploitation with this expenditure) and unscrewed the flask of filter, then it arrived beside THE HORROR - contents of filter half it consisted besides the chips, and half - through the adhesive viscous mass, on the consistency which called to mind the dense epoxy resin (when there was inside water, there was no this adhesive mass noticeable). It was not eluated by water, even hot - helped solvent, and that not immediately. It washed out flask only for the order, it was not wanted to place conversely filter.
In the week as vehicle it worked without the filter, valve began to normally close over water.

[onexa]

Flask is transparent. All normal, which were not adhered.
I.e. how I did comprehend, independent of the decrease of they must be changed in year completely?

[J.Forfum]

alexa wrote:
Flask is transparent. All normal, which were not adhered
Well if you themselves by their hands tried… Let they work to you beyond the good.
alexa wrote:
I.e. how I did comprehend, independent of the decrease of they must be changed in year completely?
CERTAINLY! Perhaps to you they did not give the service manual from ATLAS FILTRI with the description of the physics of ion exchange?
If to you it is interesting, then I will say to you about the quality of ion exchanging softeners generally. In my system of cold drinking water of 3 years stands the 3rd the main-line filter, which is calculated at the point of capacity 2… 4 cubes (or period up to 1 year). So here ion exchanging (there not chips and plastic balls of the type of coarse sand) actually moderates water well of 2 months from the force (family in this time it drinks liters 100 not more), then before the teapot it appears draft. it tried the different types of different producers. As a result it explained for itself, for the serious systems makes to with the built-in regenerative cartridges, regeneration is launched automatically. about the declared characteristicss proposed to us is maintained no criticism. The regeneration of that cooked I will merge extra due to the household conditions, as sellers - this is mockery.
Of j.Forfun (8007-04-1112:59: 15)

[Jaroclav]

I wish to be wedged in with a similar question, but only on Immergas Of nike Of mini of 24kW.
Week was placed ago with the action programmer. There are no questions on the heating, and it is here on GVS…
It is shorter, on GVS it is put out to 40, down heating 70. Based on the hot crane with low water head runs not less than 50, with the completely discovered crane the temperature falls to 32. time of the discovery the crane of role it does not play, temperature stably not normal. In this case on the indicator it burns generally 60. You will excuse, but it did not measure beside /. But on the low pressure, tighter vessels to wash is not received, hotly. This, which is normal?

it is not normal. reasons there can be several and distinct response can give service only.
moreover there can be such situation, that the pocket is completely operable. but “see” this can only . call. this is their work.
Of (2007-06-2515:56: 44)

[Jaroclav]

wrote:
it is not normal. reasons there can be several and distinct response can give service only.
moreover there can be such situation, that the pocket is completely operable. but “see” this can only . call. this is their work.
My thus far is recommended to still observe against the work of pocket before different regimes. Furthermore he indicates that the miller pocket cannot give this temperature, which I displayed. Does advise me to dilute hot water of cold on the mixer, but then why such automation, which will burn to me excess gas for the excess heating of water? I to understand divergence beside 1-2 degrees, but not beside 10!
To , pocket itself from “water equipment”.

we again pointless conversation. this nevertheless, what to treat patient through the Internet. You not to information, but you request diagnosis. pocket must give that temperature, which you program. but for this is necessary thermometer and to know the duct of water. indications on the display before this model technological and do not correspond in reality.

[fariAFNe]

Good again.
There is one additional effect, for the sake of which a few encountered.
Frequently the people place mixers with the single-lever control. Instead of the common the lever, which it is possible to turn left-right and to move -, stands by all of two gates for cold and hot water known based on the childhood. So here. Is as a rule received so that the route of hot water it proves to be longer and thornier) how the route of cold water are, since taken they roughly speaking of one crane, but at the point of hot water it is necessary to enter beside the pocket, to traverse the heat exchanger, to move out, due to what the pressure of hot water against the entry beside the mixer is somewhat less than pressure by cold. Therefore in the absence any means of the control of pressure of cold water on the single-lever mixers the optimum temperature of water to catch more complexly because is regulated simultaneously two flows. Plus on the low pressure of its hot water additionally presses greater pressure of cold, tons let us recollect, that as a rule (besides very expensive mixers) the control of flow occurs nonlinearly. As corollary pocket superheats water, it is disconnected, user again pulls ill-fated lever, increasing pressure of hot water, pocket is included and again it begins the catching of optimum. To regulate temperature by mixer is in such cases heavy. It is necessary to regulate it, also, on the pocket.
Effect to a lesser degree appears on the two-valve mixers and plays no role with the filling for the sake of tank.

[Virvasy]

My to you advice, vary temperature-sensing device GVS. try, not sport. Similar situation with preheating of water was in me on the new pocket of 24 . Under the shower could not be been washed, water first hot, then cold as on the sinusoid. Skilled workers lamented down the unstable duct of water, they brought with themselves the pile of measuring instruments, briefly stated they wished “to slip”. It was necessary at the point of very to study situation and everything which can be for the sake of it connected before the pocket. After pressing at the point of the skilled workers they varied sensor GVS and it went away. So they then entire their sensors rechecked and some of them rejected. But is generally complicated with the skilled workers to associate “this all in you… everything clearly and so forth” try, can exactly and before this reason.